Wednesday, April 8, 2009

Dime Night Dealer's Choice

As if Dime Night is not fun enough, you throw in Dealer's Choice on top of it and then you're cooking with gas. We were short handed but that didn't really change much. We tried out some other games.

* Poppyha - still hasn't quite shown its full potential but it is definitely easy to see what Doyle was talking about. I'm looking forward to this game under regular conditions.

* 2-6 Badugi - Not that different and I like the Kansas City low style. I think this was the game that busted Joe out for good. Something like Joe's 7543 to Chuck's 7432 or some other cooler like that.

* Forgot about playing Greek Hold'em.

* 7 Card Stud Hi/Lo with declare - kickin' it old skool. I've been meaning to call this for a while but Chuck was the one who mentioned it. Declaration games are the bomb. No contest.

* Heads up Pass The Trash - So eventually it is just me and Brant left at the table. It was interesting enough playing PTT with just three of us but after Chuck left it got really good. After a few hands of the regular, it was time to step it up. First change: nine cards, pass five. This allows bigger hands to happen. Good stuff but not enough. Next step: pass one card at a time. After Brant and I *both* passed each other a pair of QQ we played passing one card at a time. New cards had to stay in their own pile. This allowed you to adjust on the fly to build a killer hand. After a few more orbits then it was time to bump up the antes. No longer was one chip good enough but rather we went with ten chips. Enough to make it worth going after. This game is a lot more fun heads up than I would have thought. A TON of stuff going on. You have to keep track of what you are passing and what you dump. And you get N level thinking deep because scooping is everything. I had been planning a PTT tournament but hadn't resolved how to handle shorthanded and heads up play but now it seems like it is feasible to do it. I had originally planned it for April Fool's weekend because...well, what better time for a PTT tourney? Still need to work out particulars but this should be a fun tourney. And I agree with Brant that this is way more interesting to play heads up than Chinese Poker.

Anyway, that's the wrap up from Dime Night Dealer's Choice. Tons of fun!


Anonymous said...

I have to say it was one of the most entertaining and challenging card games I've ever played. Wit the exception of me making a couple of really bad mistakes during the declarations, Martin and I traded pretty evenly after heads up, but the brain-tearing strategy as you pass one card at a time was what really made this game amazing. I can't wait to play this game again.


Ryan said...

Man, you were right, Brant: LSP night is a *great* opportunity for lower-rolled players to play in a serious game. Like, cancer serious. No gamble wieners within five miles, clearly.

I'm genuinely sorry I missed it, but I honestly don't know if I could have played as seriously as LSP demands...

(I will take you both at your word that HUPTT was "fun" but I don't get it. Sounds like a laborious, chop-heavy ordeal, with scoop hands providing the only meaningful moments.)

Marshall said...

Jesus and I thought this was going to be the hardcore Brant inspired "real" game night.

lol@ HU PTT for like 9 cards.

There might be some loose action at WNP sometimes, but cmon, we don't even come close to touching this level of Tom-Donkery.

Woodrow said...

I only skimmed through the heads up pass the trash section in super system but I think it started out something like,

"Heads up pass the trash is the pinto of poker games...."

Sushi Cowboy said...

After going heads up we went to nine cards because seven cards *did* lead to chop heavy ordeal. Nine cards in a heads up situation allows for enough hand strength to create scoop hands otherwise you end up playing it safe and just going for a lock on low if you have one.

Having five cards to pass got really interesting too because you can basically manufacture a hand for your opponent to have. I gave Brant a 9TJQK rainbow when I had four to a flush which got completed. I gave him four diamonds to a flush when I was chasing a boat and made one. You still can know with certainty at least one card of your opponents and Brant caught me multiple times trying to represent what he knew I didn't have.

But the declaration was where it all came together. When picking your cards you are trying to generate scoop hands, not just safe one way hands. Then it comes down to whether or not you have it, whether you think your opponent has it, whether you think that he thinks you have it, etc. It is the same mental gymnastics as normal but even more so because chances are good that someone is at least considering scooping by declaring both ways and you could potentially counter-scoop by playing it safe and locking up your side.

The variation Brant and I tried had all the elements of PTT but with adjustments for heads up play. If you want to condemn it without trying it go ahead but it was an entertaining and challenging game in my opinion.

Ryan said...

"If you want to condemn it without trying it go ahead but it was an entertaining and challenging game in my opinion."

Is that @me? I condemned nothing. In fact I said I would take you at your word that it was entertaining, but that I didn't get it.

Marshall said...

For a game that was purported to be serious and for people that had a real passion for the game but not that much money, it seems pretty strange to play those crazy games HU while changing the rules and all that.

Sure it's fun and challenging, but that wasn't how the lower stakes game was billed originally.

If I want to get better at basketball, I will play in a league with better players than myself who take it seriously. If I want to have a fun challenge, I will play HORSE or some other basketball variant that doesn't have a lot to do with the actual game.

I also consider myself a heavy favorite against anyone at HU 9-card Pass the Trash. It's my natural game.

Woodrow said...

You're also probably a favorite in heads up basketball.

Ryan said...

What % of hands went to showdown in 9CHUPTT(TM)? It almost seems like you could set your hand, reveal four cards, and declare.

I suppose the pot would grow to different sizes over the course of the betting rounds, and whether you are calling or raising is going to be part of setting up your endgame...Still, was there *any* folding?

Sushi Cowboy said...

Folds were rare though I should have folded more often when Brant started firing at the pot. I previously could get away with snowing him but after he started remembering his passed cards I should have just let it go. Instead I tried to get half the pot back by going the other way at declaration but in those hands he knew that he could scoop.

Part of the reason for showing down so much was that you could try to salvage half the pot by being careful with your declare chips and/or hope that the other guy screws up. You really need to be pretty sure that you are sure to be scooped to fold and by the time that happens you might only be facing a final check/call of a big bet to try to out-declare the other guy. The pot size did vary, not only due to changing the ante structure but due to normal hand strength fluctuations.

Also, FWIW, I never claimed Dime Night to be anything more then lower stakes. I will say that it is pretty darn fun as well though.

Ryan said...

"I never claimed Dime Night to be anything more then lower stakes."

Yeah, Marsh and I are just giving Brant a hard time because in the Epic Stakes Thread, he invited WNPers to LSP on the condition that we take it seriously and not just splash around, measuring our "gamble wieners" because it was micro stakes.

Your point--that you never claimed it to be anything other than lower stakes--is basically my point about poker groups in general: you set stakes and games that best meet the desires of the regulars, and let the poker be what it is from there.

I've already made that point, though. I just reserve the right to rib Brant when he himself displays the characteristics he suggested were unwelcome at LSP...

Sushi Cowboy said...

Woody and I played some 9CHUPTT™ last night after WNP. Then after Drew became infuriated with Woody's absence of gamble wiener he joined in and we played three handed. Drew criticized Woody for not trying to scoop with his wheel. I think twice maybe three times Woody played is safe opting to take his half back when I showed a possible boat (which I didn't have). Then he said something like he was going to wait until I had it until he tried to scoop...which he successfully did the next time he wheeled and I had the boat.

Drew came in firing and scooped with his low flush against my potential higher flush that was missing the fifth suited card. I also didn't buy that he had kings full when his board was 8KKK and I figured my flush was good. Well, I was right about him not having a boat, he had quads.

Additional play with different players again confirms that the declaration phase is indeed where the most interesting part of the game is. But I think that the betting phase is not getting enough credit either since the amount of action during the betting contributes to the story that is being told.

Still tinkering with the format. For one thing, the ration of ante to bet amounts. Also, we did both eight card and nine card when we went three handed. I think a compromise would be nine card but bulk pass the cards instead of one at a time. Not sure, I'll try tweaking it next time to see what works out.

Ulfendar said...

I have to say I was not a complete believer when I read the descriptions of how good HUPTT was, but it is a fantastic game. I think it's probably a little bit better straight heads up than three handed because you both know what you passed, and what you were passed. It takes on a very Gin like aspect there.

Martin's definitely correct, the key to tweaking the game is balancing the Ante to bet ratio. I think keeping the betting is important, while it is rare to fold (and when you do fold it's always very early) pot size management and betting as story telling is hugely important.

Honestly, I think this is the most strategic heads up game I've ever played.

Anonymous said...

@ those who just cant let it go.

Fire away, I certainly deserve it, especially from what I hear were some real "varsity" plays last night....

The last thing I will say about dime night is that it is a comfortable level for those of us who play, and the game has become fun again for me, which is the point in "playing" anything. As to the level of play, compared to you pros, of course a lower stake is not going to be played at the exacting high profile you expect to get from the WNP, all I ever said about the goals were that we didn't have people playing hands blind against each other for an hour while others had to sit and watch.....let it go. you have your high-poker game, where everyone plays great and has a great time, and we have our bad poker game, where everyone is terrible and has a good time. The stakes are such that I can't imagine those people who fought for higher stakes would come down and sully themselves with our microstakes anyways, so why Marsh and Ryan, are you so hung up on making me pay for not having the skill/bankroll to continue in WNP and begrudge the fact that there is a game that I CAN afford to play in? Is there a game I am allowed to play in in your opinion?
be sure to let me know, your highness.

love you.

Ryan said...

Fun is absolutely the goal. It's fantastic that LSP has provided a venue for poker within your comfort zone, and has allowed you (and presumably others) to enjoy poker in a way that you weren't at higher stakes. Yay Brant! Yay LSP! All hail enjoyable, in-bankroll poker for everyone!

Not sarcastic *at all*, totally heartfelt.

Now that I'm clear on that point...WTF are you talking about!? There is a *lot* of presupposition and insertion of words into my mouth in your post, there, Brant. Exacting high profile expected at WNP? Hung up on making you pay? Begrudging you your game? LSP is a bad poker game where everyone is terrible? I wouldn't sully myself at LSP? Jesus, you are projecting so much you could moonlight as a movie theater.

I won't speak for Marsh, but my comment was intended as lighthearted wink/nudge ribbing over both LSP and you demonstrating the very characteristics you indicated ran against the philosophy of LSP. That's it.

I mean, in The Thread, you stressed repeatedly that LSP was intended to be "serious poker," and warned WNPers that they were welcome, but only if that seriousness was understood and respected. Then, we get tales of Martin playing like an uberdonk and hitting runners against Austin, you saying that you like how LSP has allowed you to open up your game (which could be read as, "be less serious"), and then the cherry on top: an LSP recap post extolling the virtues of HEADS UP, NINE-CARD PASS THE TRASH.

Do you not see the irony? The humor? The basis for a nudge-nudge, "Real serious, there, Brant," comment? The guy who said I'm welcome in his LSP game so long as I respect its seriousness...played 9CHUPTT!

Dude, that's funny shit. Try to see it from the lighthearted perspective I was coming from, and we'll hug it out next week...


Marshall said...

+1 to the above post.

Ulfendar said...

Hey I won't hear you talk shit about 9CHUPTT. It's the greatest game ever. I'll fight you!

/tongue firmly in cheek

Anonymous said...

did the Bloodrage (5,5) cloud your reading ability near the end of my post, did the "love you" comment not reach past your willingness to defend. of course I got your joke and of course I had to pile on, jeebus!

Lower stakes allows me to try new games that I am not good at or totally unfamiliar with, WNP or a weekend game does not allow for mistakes to be made with a bankroll of my depth, if learning a new game equates to donkey-fest then ok, my original desire to continue learning hold em (and others), while having more than one full buy-in, was a total and complete misplaced dream. By opening up my game, I mean to say that I am not playing with scared money, something that Woody was easily able to key on and take advantage of when I was playing WNP. my skill level, even in WNP, may ONLY qualify me as a donkey in any case but, I am now able to make the plays I think are right for the situation and not be out of the game entirely if someone makes the right decision against me. I'd still like to make the plays I think are correct but not have to go home when I'm wrong and since I am not as good as the mean in WNP, I am wrong more often than right yes?

thread comments:

"There might be some loose action at WNP sometimes, but cmon, we don't even come close to touching this level of Tom-Donkery"

"I'm genuinely sorry I missed it, but I honestly don't know if I could have played as seriously as LSP demands..."

I've already made that point, though. I just reserve the right to rib Brant when he himself displays the characteristics he suggested were unwelcome at LSP..."

- trying new games = the pinnacle of Donkey qualities. I'll remember that.

Hold Em heads up is not a game I am interested in practicing in a cash game situation. When it was down to Marty an I, we found a game that was challenging and interesting, moreso than Chinese could be.

I still don't see how low stakes has to mean shitty play in your minds. We've had a couple great nights of poker and one very entertaining night of mixed games. The amount of loose play on hold em nights is no more evident than in any of my nights at WNP. I still fold bad hands, people still call with questionable odds or pull big bluffs. It happens at both levels. I didn't start the digression of this discussion into the reason we have LSP, or it's origins, look at my post, I simply said I had fun playing a new game.

Woodrow said...

I think the problem here is that Ryan and Marsh don't understand what LSP stands for. LSP stands for "LOL stakes poker". Basically it's an atmosphere where the stakes facilitate a play style that generates the highest rate of LOL's per time played (hereafter referred to as LOL equity.) An example follows:

Martin looks down at 8 3 off.

"I'm gonna pop it up UTG with this, LOL." he thinks.

Martin raises 8x bb, the price of a small cup a coffee.

Brant in next position looks down at J7 suited.

"Suited, why not, LOL." he, lol's to himself as he min raises Marty. The pot is now worth as much as a previously viewed DVD copy of "The Transporter." 6 way waterfall insues. LOL.

Martin is like "LOL whatever", and shoves the rest of his stack. The pot now swells to just under the price of a handjob under the viaduct.

6 way call all in, I guess like 2 pair or something takes it down, lol.

Now as you can see here, we had 4 LOL's in a single hand of poker, so you can see how the massive LOL equity comes into play here. If you guys understood the concept you wouldn't be so quick to judge, you'll get there someday.

Ryan said...

Brant, please take your standard, "I was *obviously* joking and didn't actually mean anything I wrote despite the apparent sincerity of the underlying message" disclaimer, fold it with lots of sharp corners, and shove it up your ass sideways until you are pissing blood.

"I still don't see how low stakes has to mean shitty play in your minds."

When have I EVER suggested that I stakes define play level? I have never said...

Wait, wait...this is another fucking Brant Trap, right? I defend myself against ever having equated low stakes with shitty play, you tell me you were just joking, and I go on life tilt.

Fuck that and fuck you.

Woody, you are funny.

Love, Ryan

(I will cherry-pick which parts of this post I actually mean and which I will write off as jokes later on, after someone has invested time in a thoughtful reply that takes me and my apparent issues seriously.)

Anonymous said...

Will it end If I say the following?

"Hey, some of us are going to start a lower stakes game, anyone is invited and encouraged to come. I'm excited about it because now I'll have more than one buy in!We may use this night to try new games too! AWESOME!"

if that helps, consider it a retroactive announcement of LSP and lets be done.

Ryan said...

Jeez Brant, I was just joking!

I already know that's really what you mean with LSP. I was ribbing you with my first post because of how you originally presented LSP.

Somehow, that lead to cancer.

I hope you get good news so I can piss you off with my wildly loose play some Tuesday night...

Anonymous said...

not a chance, we only let tight/passive, loose/passive, stupid/passive and Chuck play on Tuesdays. We are an elitist group who know everything about poker and are so bored with how mortals play it, we play real games of skill, like Badugi and the Sushi-potato variant of heads up pass the trash!

Begone vermin!