Monday, February 11, 2008

Hand dissection: PLO/8

I'm hazy on this but am going with as much as I can recall. Anyone can feel free to let me know details I've fluffed up. Pot Limit Omaha hi/lo last Saturday. Relevant players are all deep stacked enough to be relevant. I pick up As6sQh2h in MP and bump it to six with the nut low draw, double suited, and a bit of counterfeit insurance. Call to my left (Tiff?), Jason, and Ivan. Flop comes out low straighty (something like 678?) and two Diamonds one Spade. I have the nut low and a backdoor flush draw. Ivan leads out for small, maybe 8 or something? I flat call to find get more information. Jason is the only other person to come along to the Turn. Turn I believe changes nothing and the nut straight is still the nut straight. Ivan bets 20. I pop it to 60 now. Jason is like "I can't believe I'm laying this down" and folds. Ivan calls. River changes nothing. Ivan checks to me and I pot it for a big amount. Ivan calls. He has 69 for nut straight and I take the lower portion.

Salient points: Jason successfully put me on A2 from my pre-flop raise AND bowed out of the hand because he was sure he was getting quartered.

I flat called the flop to see what else was going on though I could surely have raised there. Right, wrong? I think A2 in Ivan's hand would have been a bigger bet relative to the pot but I recall it was kinda light. Not sure though. My idea was to wait for a scare card like a Diamond or paired board to allow me to potentially scoop but the Turn didn't help me out. After Ivan bet I raised it as a feeler. If both Jason AND Ivan call I feel an imminent visit from the Q Fairy. Fortunately Jason folds and I'm heads up. Once the river blanks I think my only chance to scoop is to make a big bet and go with my read that Ivan doesn't have a two way hand with a nut low but it is called.

Not sure what the right thing to do here was. It's funny because if I HADN'T raised Jason might not have put me on the nut low and stayed in, much to both of our detriments.


jason said...

I am fine with the way you played this hand. I too flopped the nut low but my high hand was really weak, at that point I had just a pair of 3's as the board had a 3 on it. I also had no good draws for the high with not even a backdoor flush draw.

I did successfully put you on A2 but I thought you had a better high hand as you were the preflop raiser from mid position. If you had turned your cards face up on the flop I would have raised with the pair of 3's but given the range of hands you would likely have I decided to just flat call. Ivan was likely to have a set, a straight draw, a wrap, a made straight or top 2.

Once the turn came with all of that action I had to make a really tough laydown, which turned out to be correct. Raising on the flop would have been fine for you too as you had the nut low, an over and a back door flush draw, which is an OK hand but not a great hand against another Ace 2. But I am also a fan of jamming turns as with one card to go most of the chasers won't chase.

It is really rare that I will fold the nut low so I don't recommend it as a common laydown.

Sushi Cowboy said...

Your read needs to be spot on that there is another A2 out there also to fold in that spot.

Do players generally not fold an A2 nut low and just end up in quartersville? I can see not folding an A3 with a deuce out there but I figure that an A2 low is fairly common to quarter.

jason said...

Virtually everyone ends up in quartersville.

I so rarely fold A2 when I flop the nut low that I will end up in quartersville as well. This was just a very specific situation where I knew that given you were the preflop raiser from middle position and then given that you jammed the turn A2 was the only possible explanation.

The problem with folding A2 when you think you are in quartersville is that sometimes there will be 2 highs like nut straights and then you feel like an idiot folding the nut low while you could have quartered them.

Marshall said...

From my experience (limited as it is, even though I have probably played more hands of O8 now than everyone except Jason maybe), I go with the nut low all the way unless it is just PAINFULLY obvious that I am up against another one and getting quartered.

Martin I think maybe you should start moving your thinking towards bets that make a statement as opposed to feeler or information bets. What I mean is, if you are putting money into the pot, you should be doing for a tangible reason (either betting for value, or bluffing, or both). I think it is a mistake to try to bet in a way that is more reactionary than it is to force your opponents to react. I don't mean bet more or less necessarily, but maybe just be more proactive with your betting.

I do think you played this hand ok though. I just wish I was there to call you down with my own A2 and quarter you lol