Monday, July 16, 2007

They have poker on computers now

Here's an online hand my roommate played yesterday.

He was in the small blind and got K♦K♥. One d0nk in early position limps. Dude with a big stack (covered us and we're up to about 150 BB) raises from middle position. He calls, d0nk folds.

The flop is 2♣3♦4♠. He checks, bigstack checks behind.

Turn is Q♦. He bets $3 into a $4 pot, villain raises to $8. He calls.

River is a J♣. He bets $10 into the $20 pot, and villain calls.

Normally I'd reraise this preflop but smoothcalling can trap the limper and disguise our hand. The flop is great for us, since he raised preflop so he probably doesn't have a set or twopair or a straight. Most likely he has either an overpair to the board or two unpaired big cards. There's only one hand in that group that beats us, so we should be trying to get paid off now.

So how do we get our money in? We could bet out here, but Andrew argued that we're blowing him off too many hands, which is true since most of the hands he's raising with are unpaired and he'll likely just fold here. So we check, but do we check-raise? Check-raising is going to make the turn awkward. Plus, either he'll just fold and we'll win a small pot, or he'll slow way down and we won't get as much as we can. Check call seems really weak but I think we need to give him a little rope before we can pull the trigger.

He checks behind on the flop, which means he's probably got two big cards. Here's where we have to put out a bet and start building the pot. Either he just hit the queen or we weren't getting paid anyway. So Andrew bets 3/4 the pot, and the dude raises us, which is sweet. Do you call here or three-bet? He could have something like AQ and think he's sitting on the nuts, but he could just be testing the water.

The river's interesting, I'd probably just check call here. QQ, JJ, and QJ have just caught up to us, and all of those would reraise us hard if we bet. But on the other hand, you're missing a lot of value from Qx hands if he ends up checking through the river.

If you do end up betting out, do you call a reraise? What about a push?


Ryan said...

I like the smooth call preflop and the check on the flop. You have taken to trapping approach preflop, so follow through with that on a nice flop for you.

This is where it helps to know the player a bit. Like, if I'm the "big stack" here, you definitely check the flop, as most of the time you are getting a bet from me. (Curse this blog and the way it makes me reinforce with you guys how to play me!)

On the turn, I don't like the smooth call of his raise. At this point, you should think you have the better hand (nod to Martin), and he has indicated with his raise that he likes his.

I like a reraise on the turn of about 25, unless that leaves you with lest than 25 behind, in which case I like a push.

Maybe that's too aggressive and I'm failing to extract max value here, but for the most part, people tell the truth with their bets. If he's trying to blow you off with weak holding, he's going to fold to the reraise, but then again, if he's doing that, he's not going to call much on the river, either, unless he draws out on you.

So, since he's indicated that he likes his hand and you feel yours is better, raise it up and see if you can't get him to pay you off.

If he's playing A5, AA, 22, 33, 44, or QQ, you are in trouble of course, but that is probably not the case.

There's a lot of "feel" involved, here, which is of course difficult in online poker. Assuming your KK were good (and I'd think he'd raise the river if they weren't), you either got $10 more than I would have, or I would have got $15+ more than you.

But yeah, I like the approach on the turn of, "Oh, you're strong, eh? Then call this, bitch!"

If he has AQ and puts you on something like Qx, you are going to get paid.

Sushi Cowboy said...

It would help to know the stakes. You are both 150xBB and making $3 bets? Depending on the stacks I'd say that if villain indeed has AQ he is probably not folding to much of anything that smooth called pre-flop.

jsola said...

Oops, forgot about that. It was a $.25-$.50 $50 max table, we had about $75 and villain covered us at about $80.

Andrew said...

I didn't have the luxury of all the time in the world at the poker table so I don't know if this was *really* going through my head but I'm going to argue for the call the turn raise and lead the river instead of a reraise on the turn.

I don't like the turn reraise because you turn your hand into a bluff. I don't think you're losing AA with a reraise (this is online), QQ isn't going anywhere, A5 is calling all day and any unlikely hands like two pair or a set aren't scared here either. What you will make fold is JJ, TT, 99, 88, 77, 66, maybe 55, AQ, KQ, QJ, A4, A3.

If you reraise the turn you're now committed to betting the river which opens yourself up to raise from something like A5, 44, 33, 22 (though unlikely). You're getting a call from any hand that called your turn bet (the ones that beat us).

Instead if you call the raise and lead the river he's going to look at hands like QT, Q8, A4, etc... say "What hand can I put him on? Uh... I dunno. Guess I better call because I don't want to be bluffed". AQ, KQ and QJ (ignoring the fact the actual river would give QJ 2 pair) will bet the river for me, but I think his range is usually a bit wider than just a couple big face cards.

On the river I want to say this is a bet/fold. I suppose it's possible donkish 50 max player decides AQ is worth a raise on the river but that's about the only hand I'd incorrectly fold to. Value!

Marshall said...

I disagree with the line here.

Basically the way I would play it at a 50max table is fast. Ok so you decide to get cute pre-flop and act weak. I don't mind that, especially against a wild player.

Then you throw him some rope on the flop, but also give him a free card when he checks behind. Well as long as that turn isn't an Ace, I'm leading out here. I am glad you did, and then you got the best of all possible results; he raised you!

Now your trap has worked and its time to hammer him. Right here is where you will get your value out of this situation. If he is beating you, he will call almost any bet, because he has to have AA or 2-pair and above. If he is behind or drawing, you need to get as much money in that pot as you can right now, cause if he whiffs on the river, he isn't calling any more bets.

There are a lot of hands that he might be willing to call a re-raise with here that are in his range, and that you are way ahead of. Hands like 66-JJ, any 5, AQ, KQ, and QJ.

Sure, you are showing a lot of strength, and you might lose him, but I see it as pretty black and white. If he has something, he is going to want to call or shove depending on what he has. If he doesn't have anything, he's not going to call on the river anyhow unless he improves to hand better that yours. You have go get money in this pot now, on the turn, when you rate to be way ahead. If you scare him off, then so be it.

Being OOP sucks ass, but you just can't let him get off so easy, you have to push your edge against him here I think.

Ryan said...

So what did he have? He called the river bet, how did this end up?

You say the turn reraise turns your hand into a bluff because all worse hands are going to fold, but, while I haven't played online in a while, is that really true?

My experience online is that AQ, KQ, maybe even QJ will go all the way, here. Top pair good kicker! W00t!

I guess the real question is, what is this guy's true range given the action?

The check behind on the flop is very interesting to me. I mean, You've shown no strength at all, he's the preflop aggressor, and he doesn't follow through with a bet on that flop. Then he raises the turn when a Q comes off.

What hands make sense for this action?

What do we know about Big Stack? Anything?

Andrew said...

No idea about his aggression level. I'd estimate his VP$IP as pretty reasonable, 30% or something. He was described as a "donk" earlier in the thread but that just meant he was standard 50 max player AFAIK. He was far from a maniac.

I forgot to mention my table image was TAG. I think this is pretty important to the hand. I'd actual sat down and told myself "stop playing crap tonight". I think the table took notice because I was hardly being floated as much as I was used to.

I think that helps explain his check behind on the flop (this may have been the first time I was in a raised pot OOP and he whiffed) and also why I'm so concerned about losing hands I can get more value out of. I will almost guarantee there's no way 66-JJ was calling a reraise.

Turns out he had KQ (offsuit I think). I have no doubt the more aggressive line is far superior against a maniac or if I had been playing very loose. I like the line I took if someone like me was the villain though.

Marshall said...

This just doesn't seem like good TAG play to me at all. You seem to have the tight part down, and an image to go with it, but how did you play even remotely aggressively in this hand?

You didn't raise one single time.

I think you let him off easy.

Sure, we can go ROT here and decide that if you had bet the flop, he would have folded and you would have won less, but what if he had a hand like JJ? By leading at that flop you put him is a spot where he should be good most of the time, especially since you didn't show any aggression preflop. Now he probably raises you and you can go from there, but there is a LOT more money going into that pot. Even if he had AK or AQ, giving him that free card could reveal the dreaded Ace and end your action right there.

In reality, the ideal situation happened for you, he hit his 3 outer, but even then you didn't win a monster pot.